Security and identity products need business models that fit inverted outcomes. In Inverted Podcast #5, the hosts talk with Mark Risher about pricing, trust, friction, and how startups and platforms balance speed with security.
Topics include naive 2FA and identity implementations, flat versus per-user pricing, managed versus in-house security, Sign-In with Google and licensing, SMS cost at global scale, security ROI, and aligning security teams with growth using shared metrics and guardrails.
About the guest
Mark Risher of Outgoing joins Dana, Dario, and Tom to unpack how security and identity products make money and win trust when success often means nothing happens. The conversation spans startups and big tech, pricing models, SMS and dormant-user costs, and shared metrics between security and growth.
Key takeaways
- Inverted products sell prevention and trust, which changes how you price and prove value.
- Speed-to-market versus security is a permanent tension for startups and vendors.
- Simplistic 2FA or identity shortcuts can create false confidence and real risk.
- Flat versus per-user models hide different costs at scale, including dormant users and SMS.
- Platform identity (for example Sign-In with Google) reshapes niches and go-to-market.
- Shared metrics and guardrails help security and growth teams pull in the same direction.
Topics covered
- Startup vs big tech security expectations
- Balancing speed, trust, privacy, and user friction
- Managed vs outsourced vs platform security
- Flat pricing vs per-user and licensing models
- SMS costs, dormant users, and monetization
- Aligning security ROI with growth metrics
Chapters
00:00 Intro & Welcome
01:06 Meet Mark Risher
01:44 Startup vs. Big Tech
02:42 Balancing Speed and Security
04:03 Vendor Expectations
05:35 Security as a Differentiator
07:01 User Trust and Privacy
08:21 Do Users Care About Security?
10:02 Business Models Overview
11:05 Managed vs. Outsourced Security
13:07 Platform Vendors vs. In-House
15:02 Mark’s Past Startup
18:07 Flat Pricing vs. Per-User
20:22 Centralized Security Risks
22:12 Identity as a Niche
24:26 Sign-In with Google
26:09 Licensing Models
28:07 Startup Budgeting
30:49 Dormant Users & Monetization
33:11 SMS Costs & Global Impact
35:36 Security ROI
36:25 Aligning Security and Growth
39:07 Shared Metrics & Guardrails
42:59 Defining Active Users
44:48 Tooling and Best Practices
45:36 Final Thoughts & Wrap-Up
FAQ
Who is the guest?
Mark Risher of Outgoing joins the hosts to discuss business models for security and identity products drawn from startup and large-platform experience.
Why are inverted product business models hard?
Buyers pay to avoid rare bad outcomes. That makes value proof, pricing, and packaging different from products that sell engagement or throughput.
How does this connect to later canvas episodes?
Episode 5 frames commercial trade-offs that Episodes 14, 15, and 29 expand with the Business Model Canvas for security products.
Related on Inverted PM
- Podcast #14: Business Model Canvas for Security (Part 1)
- Podcast #15: Business Model Canvas for Security (Part 2)
- Podcast #29: Business Model Canvas with Alex Osterwalder
- Podcast #6: Using Cost to Defend Against Abuse
- Meet the hosts
- All Inverted Podcast episodes
Connect with the hosts and guests on the video or on LinkedIn to continue the conversation.
🎧 Find the Inverted Podcast on LinkedIn, Spotify, YouTube, Amazon Music/Audible, iHeartRadio, or invertedpm.com.
Explore more
Browse all Inverted Podcast episodes, read the blog, or meet the hosts.
Related: Episode 14 – Business Model Canvas Part 1 · Episode 15 – Business Model Canvas Part 2