Podcast

Inverted product people work on problems that are rarely visible to customers: security, privacy, online safety, and infrastructure. Success often means nothing bad happens. On The Inverted Podcast, hosts Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, Dario Salice, and Tom Williamson share how inverted product teams define metrics, strategy, and roadmaps differently from traditional product orgs.

Newest episode: evidence-guided product management with Itamar Gilad (Inverted Podcast #30).

Listen on Spotify and YouTube. New episodes appear here as they publish.

Itamar Gilad on evidence-guided product management for security and inverted products: GIST, North Star metrics, levels of evidence, and outcome-based OKRs.

Alex Osterwalder on the Business Model Canvas for security and AI-era startups: customer discovery, evidence, and repeatable innovation.

OpenAI’s Nick Steele on agent identity, permissions, least privilege, and securing autonomous AI agents — on the Inverted Podcast.

Authentication is moving beyond passwords, and passkeys are becoming a product and regulatory priority. In Inverted Podcast #27, Jeroen Kemperman and Dario Salice talk with Vincent Delitz, co-founder of Corbado,…

Some popular security advice no longer matches how attacks work. In Inverted Podcast #26, Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, and Dario Salice talk with Bob Lord, founder of Hacklore, about security…

Elliott Sainsbury joins the Inverted Podcast on product design for trust and safety: workflows, incentives, and building protection into the product.

Digital identity is moving from passwords and static accounts to passkeys, runtime controls, and AI agents. In Inverted Podcast #24, the hosts unpack what is changing in identity security, authentication,…

Account recovery is often the weakest link in otherwise strong authentication. In Inverted Podcast #23, the hosts talk with Dean H. Saxe about why recovery is the most dangerous feature…

What makes a company truly incorruptible? In Inverted Podcast #22, hosts Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, and Dario Salice talk with Eric Ries, author of The Lean Startup and the book…

Build AI products that stay compliant before rewrites become inevitable. In Inverted Podcast #21, host Dario Salice talks with Dexter Awoyemi, an independent AI systems architect, about regulation, risk classification,…

High-risk people need a different security model than everyday phishing advice. In Inverted Podcast #20, hosts Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, and Dario Salice talk with Mike Sager about targeted attacks…

Even careful users get hacked when attackers weaponize trust and excitement. In Inverted Podcast #19, hosts Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, and Dario Salice talk with Olivia, a Switzerland-based travel content…

What happens to your accounts, data, and digital identity when you die or become incapacitated? In Inverted Podcast #18, the hosts explore digital legacy with Dean H. Saxe, including work…

The Inverted Podcast on bug bounty programs: how PMs and security teams use them to ship safer products and learn from researchers.

Sometimes the best security strategy is to look boring to attackers. In Inverted Podcast #16, hosts Jeroen Kemperman, Dana Kaufman, and Dario Salice talk with Olivier Martinet, CISO of TX…

Security companies do not scale like ordinary SaaS. In Inverted Podcast #15, the hosts continue their two-part look at the Business Model Canvas for security products: how trust, partnerships, cost…

Security companies need a canvas that reflects inverted value. In Inverted Podcast #14, the hosts introduce the Business Model Canvas and begin adapting each building block for products that succeed…

Chasing perfect security can block good security. In Inverted Podcast #13, the hosts use the synced passkeys debate to show why clarity, consistency, and ecosystem thinking beat perfection theater. They…

Low, medium, and high are rarely enough. In Inverted Podcast #12, the hosts dig into risk quantification for security product work: defining what risk you mean, mapping what the business…

AI scales both attacks and defenses. In Inverted Podcast #11, the hosts examine how generative and automated systems reshape phishing, malware campaigns, product risk, and enterprise governance. They discuss creative…

SMBs and enterprises do not buy or operate security the same way. In Inverted Podcast #10, Tim Ehrhart joins the hosts to compare expectations, attacker targeting, and product design for…

Security that frustrates users often fails in practice. In Inverted Podcast #9, the hosts talk with Cristina Vintila about user-centric security: designing protections people can actually live with. They discuss…

Many breaches start with people under pressure, not exotic zero-days. In Inverted Podcast #8, the hosts unpack social engineering: how attackers use urgency, trust, and process gaps to bypass technical…

Scraping no longer looks like a noisy bot farm at the edge. In Inverted Podcast #7, the hosts examine how attackers hide scraping inside legitimate user traffic and how malicious…

Attackers run businesses. Raise their costs and the abuse often stops paying. In Inverted Podcast #6, the hosts show how strategic friction and infrastructure cost can defend products without crushing…

Security and identity products need business models that fit inverted outcomes. In Inverted Podcast #5, the hosts talk with Mark Risher about pricing, trust, friction, and how startups and platforms…

Prevention and detection metrics often pull teams in opposite directions. In Inverted Podcast #4, the hosts argue that damage (the harm users and the business actually suffer) is the unifying…

User journeys show how customers succeed. Attacker journeys show how adversaries do. In Inverted Podcast #3, the hosts introduce critical attacker journeys as a core tool for inverted product management…

Most security success is invisible until something goes wrong. In Inverted Podcast #2, the hosts unpack the invisible line: the true level of badness in your systems versus the slice…

Success in security often means nothing happens. In Inverted Podcast #1, the hosts open the series by defining inverted product management: why metrics, strategies, personas, and roadmaps look different when…